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| Author | Comment | Maizie
Unregistered User
(3/14/00 1:13:52 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del All | Need Advice and Opinions on C and C++.
After about 20 years in mostly mainframe and some exposure to client-server, I've decided to get some training to program in other areas. I'm learning HTML now and plan to get a little JAVA training too. But mainly I need to know the difference between C and C++. I've been exposed to both and to Oracle, but I want to learn C/C++ programming. The local community college teaches a 10-week C class this summer for less than $100. The local University teaches a 5-week C++ class for about $350. The community college course is more geared towards getting a job, and the University course is more theory. They are both held at the same time. Do I need to take C before I take C++? Do I need to take both to get a job? Since I'm unemployed right now, I've got more time than money.
After reading this board for a long time, it seems like there are a lot of knowlegeable and experienced people here. Can anyone give me some advice or an opinion? What would you do? Thanks in advance!
| DJ Again
Global user
(3/14/00 1:44:07 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del | Re: Need Advice and Opinions on C and C++.
Hi Maizie!
C++ requires a knowlege of 'C' first. If you look at the C++ course description I'll bet a requirement is a foundation in plain old 'C'. Also C++ is OOP (object oriented) and it requires a new way of thinking about programming. Or alternatively, a course in Java or Visual Basic would teach you the concepts of OOP before you learn C++.
In order of learning difficulty starting with the easiest, I would list:
HTML
Visual Basic
Java
C
C++ (requires knowledge of 'C')
... Good Luck .. DJ
| Visitor
Unregistered User
(3/14/00 2:10:12 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del | Slightly disagree here -
Some say that it is even better to go directly to c++ without first learning c, you will learn that along the way anyhow.
I also suggest to learn 'pure' c++ in the beginning, without any graphical interfaces like MFC, so it won't mix you up. Start from the basics, leave things like templates for later - though it is good to use the standard library from the beginning.
Use the complier to teach you how to code - it will point your errors out effectively  . Buy a good reference book - one with example code and possibly one of the 'teach yourself c++' books. Good luck!
My 0.02DM
"c++"
| OldGuy 
Local user
(3/14/00 2:15:58 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del | Take C++
If you take the C++ course you'll also learn C at the same time. C is basically a sub-set of C++.
If you know C++, then you know C. However, if you know C it doesn't follow that you also know C++.
Also, programming in C++ requires a completely different way of thinking than does C. If you learn to program in C first you can actually have a harder time learning C++.
Furthermore, its getting difficult to find C only contracts. Those that do exist are usually just maintenance of old code. Most of the interesting projects require C++.
| Don Wallace
Moderator
(3/14/00 2:46:59 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del | C and C++
What everyone else has already said is true.
I'll add:
C++, like C, is used for: shrinkwrap product development work by major software companies. Less so by vertical market (industry specific) software vendors, unless they are developing device drivers as part of their product.
Most business application programming is NOT done in C or C++. Most database programming is not done in C or C++. Database and application programming are generally done in one of several scripting languages such as Visual Basic, Oracle server side scripts, Delphi, etc.
Given your background, I honestly don't see the synergy between your C/S and mainframe skill sets and C++/
C++ has some limited application in web development. However, most web development winds up being a specific category of business ap development and (guess what) is usually done using scripting tools, the most common of which on the web are ASP, Perl, and PHP.
I am *skeptical* that most people in industry have a need to learn and master C++ due to its somewhat narrow application in a limited area of the IT industry (embedded devices, device drivers.) HOWEVER, if you are entering software development from the engineering fields (electrical primarily), C/C++ will be a natural choice if you want to integrate programming into your repertoire.
The language specification for C++ is based directly upon C.
As already stated, C has been 'superceded' by C++. C++ faced a lot of hostility from many committed "C" only developers in the early 90's but most C projects that have had ANY maintenance or new features added in the last 10 years have been migrated to C++. I have not met a "C" only developer for more than 5 years. Any new commercial development that would have called for C in the 1980's would be done in C++ today.
Email: realrates@donwallace.com
Consulting Profile: http://www.donwallace.com
| Don Wallace
Moderator
(3/14/00 2:50:43 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del | Excellent advice,avoid app frameworks in learning!
MFC is a poor excuse for a class library and C++ coding style guide and does a grave disservice to many beginning C++ developers.
If you REALLY want to learn C++, avoid other people's class libraries and spend time writing toy applications that use console I/O. WHEN and ONLY WHEN keywords like 'virtual' don't confuse you, graduate to windowed applications. Not before.
NO, this is NOT the way Microslop, etc WANT you to learn C++.
Microsoft and other tool vendors *want* to develop crippled C++ programmers that don't have a good grasp of the underlying language abstractions. Email: realrates@donwallace.com
Consulting Profile: http://www.donwallace.com
| DJ Again
Global user
(3/14/00 4:21:19 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del | C = 10 weeks, C++ = 5 weeks Does not compute!
My advice is to check on the pre-requisites for the C++ course. Everyone here is assuming that the C++ course will also teach you basic 'C'. 5 weeks doesn't seem long enough to me. To paraphrase another analogy, how do you stuff 10 more weeks into a 5-week bag??
| philipgw
Unregistered User
(3/14/00 5:10:29 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del | This mainframe dinosaur made the jump.
I started out in PL/1, IMS, RPG and VSAM. Today, I code PL/SQL, Oracle 8i, Javascripting, & Java, and command appropriate market-competitive rates. In making the transition, it became clear to me that "there was nothing new under the sun"and the leap from the procedural world into the OOP world was not that great from a conceptual standpoint. I have never taken and formal classes although I read everything I can get my hands on, immerse myself in web sites, downloads, code examples, books, magazines, and manuals. For me, entry to the client server world came not through language as much as databases. I had some background in DB2/SQL, which I then segued into Paradox, Access, and then Sybase, and finally Oracle. The key thing is to appoach new technology with intellectual curosity and flexibility, looking for hooks between what you do know and what you must know, and then by systematically filling in the gaps through personal initiative. My MO in general is to buy two or three solid "bibles" from different publishers from the local bookstore, download as much production code as I can get from the site I am at, often thousands of lines of code, create a "hello world" application, expanding on it with additional operations or classes as the case may be, and then going out to the web for all FAQs, tutorials, and downloads that may be out there-- and there is a vast amount. My favorite entree is via WWW.ASKJEEVES.COM and also WWW.ABOUT.COM. Without being too arrogant about it, I truely believe there isn't a language or system that I cannot master within a month by using this approach. I do realize some people need the structure and the security of a classroom, but for me a "university of one" is the way to go. And you can't beat the tuition!
| maizie
Global user
(3/14/00 7:32:14 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del | Good Ideas!
It's good to know that there are others out there like me who are trying something new and have made a go of it! Thanks for the response.
I have always learned more in a class than I have by studying on my own. Another reason I decided to take a class is for the possible job contacts. On several occasions I have met people in classes that gave me leads. In fact the first contract I ever got was by a classmate's referral. Who knows, maybe these classes will bring me luck too!
| maizie
Global user
(3/14/00 8:03:27 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del | The Last nail on the Coffin for Mainframe?
Thanks for giving me some things to think about.
Four years ago I worked on a project to convert an employee compensation system from mainframe (MVS) to client-server(Unix). We incorporated C, C++, SQL server, Oracle, and even Microfocus COBOL. I've since forgotten what little C/C++ I did. (The contractors were not really supposed to be doing any of the fun stuff. We were there mainly to support the old system until the conversion happened.)
There are a lot of us mainframers who have given up on finding mainframe jobs because we've been out of work so long. But we don't want to throw out all of our skills. Do you have any recommendations?
| Don Wallace
Moderator
(3/14/00 9:13:16 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del | Not exactly... not at all
I am not a mainframe developer so I don't know the lingo at all. But it seems to me that your skills in app development and DBMS analysis and design would migrate well to PC based equivalents - SQL for the data access language, Oracle (for instance) for the back end server, and VB for the user interface and scripting. As examples, of course.
Since your past experience is mainframe and I therefore presume it was heavy on the applications and databases, I guessed that C++ would provide little or no leverage for you. I might be wrong, but... in my experience (admittedly not vast but fairly broad) very few shops use C++ for application or DB development. C++ is just too difficult and too exacting for general software development; companies have to worry about replacing bodies, and the chances are that C++ based application code will make certain people irreplaceable. At least that's the rationale I've witnessed. The companies that do use C++ for app development are generally developing software products. This is generally a much smaller pool of clients/employers than IT applications across industry in general.
What I'm trying to say --- putting on a 'career counselor' hat --- is that C++ is probably a waste of time for you (in my opinion, of course) if you want to stay in business application development and database analysis, development and applications, regardless of whether it's being offered to you for a reduced cost or whatever. Of course, *nothing* is wasted knowledge in theory, but I am guessing that C++'s applications are so limited in the business side of software development that it won't help you land a job or a contract...at least not as much as taking courses more oriented to DBMS on PCs, etc.Email: realrates@donwallace.com
Consulting Profile: http://www.donwallace.com
Edited by Don Wallace at: 3/14/00 9:13:16 pm
| yankeedoodle
Unregistered User
(3/14/00 9:57:28 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del | agree kinda
I share your conclusion, DW, but arrive at it differently. C++ is a very popular language. But there's lots of C++ stiffs out there who have several years experience.
There are, however, not many folks that have a lot of Java experience. So, Maizie (is that 'Corny" in Indian?), go take a Java class. Learn to use servlets,
JDBC, and Enterprise Java Beans. That's hot right now.
And the competition is light right now.
C++ is and will be very popular for a while but server side Java is where the better rates are and will probably be for a while. Good Luck and keep your nose in those books.
| Sparred with the Sperry
Unregistered User
(3/14/00 10:10:16 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del | Time to market
"Learn to use servlets, JDBC, and Enterprise Java Beans. That's hot right now."
Query :
How long would you estimate this undersupply would continue Vs time to acquire proficiency in the skill ?
| Dan
Unregistered User
(3/14/00 10:17:04 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del | If I may add...
from the standpoint of someone who has developed (and still IS developing) software for the mainframe, in a C/S environment, and for the web, Don is correct. That is, depending on where you want to go (oh my God! Have i become THAT indoctrinated??).
If you want to develop, debug, and analyze applications that play in the C/S arena, including web-enabled mainframe applications, a workable knowledge of C++ could come in handy. IF you are working with applications where the data servers were (or are being) written in C++.
You'll find that a lot of the user interfaces are written in VB, VBScript, JavaScript, and a plethora of other scripting languages.
I just picked up yankeedoodle's post. He has hit on the hot'n'sexy language dujour. Java is being touted as the premier language for application development. Some industry magazines could tend to give you the impression that it is the ONLY language to use. I'd tend to disagree with the one-and-only viewpoint. But that's another rant entirely.
I have had several management types exclaim that someone with real-world experience in developing for mainframes and PCs AND for the web are "worth their weight in gold" (direct quote of more than one). Wish I could cash in on that kind of exchange rate.
Anyhow, focus on your strengths in analysis, design, and architecting and integrating solutions. That's where someone with our type of talents can bring real value to the table.
The difficult part will be marketing those skills in a marketplace where the conversations usually flow along the lines of laundry lists of "languages used". An in most cases the focus of the (head)hunters is narrowed to "how well can you code in X?"
If you can get beyond the "tools" mindset of most recruiters and get into the "skills" scheme of things, the payoff (monetary and otherwise) can be quite rewarding.
FWIW
| RegisIcide
Unregistered User
(3/14/00 11:23:53 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del | Just learn Java
Unless you want to get into hardcore, bits and bytes development, just learn Java. It's a lot easier to learn than C or C++, and, as long as you learn it right, you'll learn OOP right from the start. After you learn Java, learn C/C++ if you really need it.
| Don Wallace
Moderator
(3/14/00 11:29:54 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del | I learnt sumthin' on this thread...
I will take your advice on servlets, JDBC, etc to the bank. Thank you.Email: realrates@donwallace.com
Consulting Profile: http://www.donwallace.com
| David Cressey 
Global user
(3/15/00 12:14:28 am)
Reply | Edit | Del | Where are you coming from?
You've got a lot of interesting replies here, about what direction you ought to go in, but nobody asked where you are starting from.
20 years in mainframe could mean a lot of different things.
How much program development did you do? In what languages? Are you familiar with structured programming practices? Pointers and dynamic variables? Localizing variables to reduce ripple effects?
Have you done any conceptual data modeling using a model like Entity-Relationship modeling? Do you know how to convert back and forth between a relational model and any other kind of data model?
Have you ever used a CASE tool? Ever done any significant work with one?
In your present methodologies, what's the ratio between time spent analysing the problem, time spent designing the solution, and time spent coding and debugging?
The answers to these, and other questions like them could make the difference between a "C" course being a complete waste of time, and being a necessary transition to get your head set into the frame of mind that the "C++" course presumes as a starting place.
Regards,
David Cressey
ICCA Member since 1986
| Mike
Unregistered User
(3/15/00 2:04:24 am)
Reply | Edit | Del | Shucks,
for lack of an idea of a better subject.
Learning Java and a sql rdbms are a valid starting point.
Why you would want to add on C and or C++, though, I wonder, instead of mastering Java and a sql rdbms, instead of mastering these two and finding jobs to apply these skills. I don't think that learning every possible programming language is going to do you much good, unless you plan on teaching all of them, but, then, you'ld still end up stuck with the same problem; not knowing any of them well enough, to a practical extent. If your idea is more to do other work and just learn all the PLs you can as a hobby, then a hobbyist can do what ever he or she pleases.
It is usually recommended that people who learn and work with C++ also know C. One good reason is that C++ is not a panacea and knowing C provides a means of being able to implement cleaner programs, with less overhead coding, when this is appropriate, which it sometimes is.
One thing to know or understand about C++ is the C++ compilers support both C++ and C. Some reports have surfaced over the years, that some people working with C++ compilers only or mostly coded in C. Hence, not everyone who's used the C++ compiler coded in C++, or not much anyway.
C has been known to be better than C++ for component oriented design and implementation. There continues to be a large base of code that's in C, and not all of it needs to be converted to C++.
C was and still is primarily a systems level programming language, as well as well suited for device drivers, etc.
C could be used to develop any application in the world, but there are definitely pros and cons to using C, depending on what the purpose is. For example, C lacks strong data typing. You can pass an int into a char and vice versa; therefore, for many very critical systems, C is a PL to be wary of using.
Ada is a very strongly data typed language, but it has also been considered to be a "hog".
There are many OOPLs around, including: Smalltalk, C++, Java, Object oriented COBOL, Ada95, Eiffel, Perl, and others. Smalltalk is the first or one of the first OOPLs and very good for learning OOA/OOD/OOP, still to this day; however, there's relatively little that's been developed with Smalltalk. If you want to take a look at an example of St, then you could download the free version of VisualWorks for Smalltalk from parcplace or objectshare, if they still provide this. A couple of years ago, OS had control of VW for St.
www.objectshare.com
VW for anything comes with a good class browser, allowing the user to look at class definitions, at various refined levels. It's a good IDE tool and PL for learning what OOP is about. It also comes with a wizard for creating windows quickly.
I haven't programmed with St, but VW for St looked very nice a couple of years ago and I don't know why this didn't catch on more than it did. However, there's occassionally jobs for this kind of St work with some large financial companies. I believe to have seen Chemical Bank with an ad a couple or few times. There's also at least one company that's into robotics which uses St a lot. That company was based on the northshore of Boston, I think in Andover, or nearby.
If you're interested in software engineering, then, sure, C and C++ would be good to learn, but if this isn't the kind of work you have in mind, then I wouldn't waste my time with either of these, and would instead learn Java, Perl and the [many] modules that have been developed with and for Perl, including for ASP, PHP, FTP, network programming, systems administration, IPC, etcetera.
What I lack in knowledge about Perl for network programming and IPC, for example, is whether or not the code runs fast enough, to replace the need to do this kind of coding in C, or possibly C++.
However, if you really want to learn C++,then you should also learn C. From some reading last week, it seems that Objective-C might be initially more useful to someone who doesn't know C++. What I read said that Objective-C provides OO capabilities while allowing the developer to normally create cleaner implementation than with C++, because Obj-C supposedly allows for much less cluttered code. C++ can definitely be very cluttered.
In that case, though, you could take both courses, in parallel, if you really believe that you really have any real use for learning C and C++.
What you should learn, if you want to be able to speed up the curve to become marketable, depends on the kind of work you did with mainframes. If you were a systems programmer, then this would help to provide advice along the same line. If you were an applications programmer, then this is a very different line.
Hence, what kind of work did you do on mainframes?
| drink2much
Global user
(3/15/00 2:23:50 am)
Reply | Edit | Del | A couple of things to watch out for (one anyway)
I, too, decided that I needed to upgrade my skills, so I signed up for a C++ coutse at the local community college (4 yr colleges are too far away). I have taken a few courses at the same CC and have always been very satisifed. When I was in "REAL" college, the professors were mostly career professors - management professors who never managed, rodeo professors who never rode a bronc, etc. In the CC, my profs were always folks who were working in the discipline they taught, and the classes were SO MUCH better. Teachers actually know what they were talking about because of real world experience. My COBOL prof was a long-time FTE for GE, and used his teaching as an opportunity to spot/recruit new employees from the better students (I'm usually the top 1 or 2 in programming classes)
I pretty much expected the same experience this time, but boy was I wrong. I could be teaching this class and doing a better, considerably better, job than the woman who is teaching it. Students have asked questions like "what's the difference between a "float" and a "double", and she's not sure. All lecture examples, etc comes strictly from the book and she often can't answer questions that are illustrated in the chapter she is teaching. There are conventions, terms and just basic stuff that are common to most programming languages that you don't have to be a C++ guru to know. I'm sure she's scratching her head over my homework assignments. ("How the hell did he do that??")
Although I AM learning C++, (Not visual) thanks to a VERY good textbook, and it will be nice to have some institutional validation of that fact.
Main moral of the story: Make sure you find out as much as you can about who is teaching whatever course you are taking, and make who they are a major factor in selecting a class.
AND -- a side note: Java code makes a LOT more sense to me since the C++, the syntax is very, very similar.
| Mike
Unregistered User
(3/15/00 2:50:02 am)
Reply | Edit | Del | Shucks, Part II
1) Depending on your experience with mainframes, or not, you might want to consider systems and or network installation and administration.
2) If you don't have NT Server at home, don't want to dish out the kind of money NT Server costs, and don't mind learning on or with a Unix variant type of OS, then you could and possibly should consider giving Linux a try. (I don't hestitate when it comes to Linux.)
There are several good Linux distibutions presently available, Linux has been gradually catching business, and will continue to do so. Numerous industry authors have been talking about Linux for at least a few years and you could easily find many articles on the web.
This OS is currently acceptable for both desktop, standalone, workstations, as well as for various server purposes. Some say it's not easy to install Linux, but this is past history. I installed RedHat 5.1, considered a tedious one to install, configure, ..., and haven't had any serious problems. RH 5.1 is also a few years old.
For desktops, there is a considerable assortment of desktops and window managers. I downloaded, installed and configured KDE 1.1.2 around a month ago, and it's a very nice desktop and window manager, excellent for its stage of development.
There's also GNOME, but although it provides a good desktop, it's not a window manager and requires one of the existing window managers, such as fvwm, mwm, ice, enlightenment (this is supposedly the best wm for GNOME, presently), etcetera. However, it's also good.
Linux comes packed with goodies and capabilities. If you get a deluxe version, which would cost you considerably less than NT Workstation, let alone NT Server, then you'ld get ftp and www server capabilities. One web site where you can learn more about Linux in the server respect is at Network Computing
www.networkcomputing.com
They give the pros and cons of Unix, Linux, and NT, as well as Novell and other servers.
For programming, all for free, with Linux, you can learn (need to pay for a distribution if you don't want to go through many hours downloading, though):
a) applications development with Java and other PLs.
b) sql/rdbms with a number of rdbms engines, PostgreSQL coming for free, but there's also Oracle and Informix. I am still using RedHat 5.1 and it came with some Oracle, but haven't looked into it, yet, and RH 5.1 is a few years old.
c) systems programming, with C, C++, Perl and what ever else is available.
d) a variety of scripting languages, including Perl, Python, Expect, Tk/tcl, and the typical Unix shell scripting languages, like ksh (pdksh, as ksh is not free, but pdksh is nearly 100% identical), bash (Bourne again shell), sh, and others.
e) gui development based on the X Window System. Some available tools are, of course C++, but also Tk/tcl, and others I'm not knowledgeable about, albeit also don't know Tk/tcl, yet, but know it comes with Linux distributions.
f) etcetera.
A person (of course a person) can learn network programming with Linux using a single PC, through a loopback mechanism, which I believe is also available with NT, but NT Server is majorly expensive in comparison.
3) If you chose to use Linux and learned Perl, then most of the code would be immediatley portable to the win32 platform. Perl is not a bad thing to learn, because it is vast wrt capabilities, with the [many] modules that now exist for Perl, all of which is free. Perl is multi-platform, including all or by far most Unix variants, including Linux, and VAX/VMS, some mainframe(s), I believe Apple or Mac, and possible others.
Perl also has OO capabilities. I haven't looked into this aspect, but know it's available in one of the modules that's been created for Perl.
Some web sites for looking into Perl, are:
www.activestate.com - for win32 Perl
www.perl.com
wwwhost.cc.utexas.edu/cc/...unix/perl/
ActiveState is working on a complete IDE for Perl, but I don't think it's ready, yet.
Many other Perl resource web sites are linked through the above web sites.
The url which refers to unix is not just for Perl for Unix. There are links for Perl for win32, VAX/VMS, etcetera.
I don't know,though, how Perl compares to other tools for things like ASP and PHP, but know these capabilities are now available with Perl. Perl can also be used for systems programming, IPC, FTP, etc.,as probably already stated.
4) Java, Perl, SQL/rdbms should be a good way to start. Only if you want to specialize in software engineering should you need to learn C and C++. Of course, if you want to work on maintenance, instead of new development, then C and C++ may be worthwhile, depending on where you live and prefer to work.
Am not an expert wrt what's most marketable, but C++ ws big in the early 90s in Massachusetts, and demand has since dwindled considerably. There are jobs for these two PLs, but I don't know what regions have the most demand, which areas have virtually no demand, etc., for these two skills.
DoD makes use of many PLs,including Smalltalk and Eiffel, as well as of course Ada and Ada95, C, C++, shell scripting, sql/rdbms, ... However, other industries don't use such a wide range of tools.
Hence, you need to consider what you did before and whether you want to use that as a basis in transitioning, as well as what you'ld be interested in transitioning to and the job outlook, present and future related to what you'ld transition to.
Network installation, administration, and programming should be very good. Systems administration, although fewer jobs than in applications or systems programming, is a stable area, I believe, for those who are good at it.
Software development can be shipped to other countries, while network and systems installation and administration must be done on-site, far more anyway. Sure, some of the administrative work or tasks can be done through remote login, but much of the work requires being on-site, whereas a lot of sw development can be done remotely.
There are certification courses and exams (don't always need to take courses) for systems administration, as well as for programming. For MS certs, I've read from a number of people that they just bought and studied the books, and then wrote the exams, which greatly reduced the costs for certification.
I don't know what's best for you. You did not say why C and C++ caught your attention in a special way. You did not say what you did in the mainframe world, or what you'ld like to do with the skills you could learn, or what areas of technology work would be of interest vs not of interest. The computer industry is broad.
There are many jobs requiring sql/rdbms, though, but not many of these require C or C++, as much as Java, VB, and other PLs.
That's long winded, and I'm not going to reread to check on spelling, ...
| Mike
Unregistered User
(3/15/00 3:09:28 am)
Reply | Edit | Del | The advice is good, but that also depends on the
circumstances. The intial poster of the thread said that he or she is out of work and doesn't have significant funding, which probably means that he/she would like to get back to work, a.s.a.p.
In this respect, learning an application framework may be the quickest way for this person to find work again, especially if this person wants to learn for work on MS platforms and MFC is greatly used for C++ work.
If a person has considerably more time to learn without needing to be concerned about income, then your advice would be right on.
However, I also agree with the other opinions that C++, and even C, might not be the best skills to learn, presently, especially: a) if there's relatively little demand for these; and b) because this person said that he/she already began learning or looking into Java and Oracle, which gives a fair indication of the kind of work he/she aims to look for (overlooked this factor in a couple of my other posts in this thread).
There's relatively very little demand for C, and I don't think there's much for C++, at least compared to other skills or PLs.
| Regular Reader
Unregistered User
(3/15/00 9:47:14 am)
Reply | Edit | Del | 10 years COBOL = 10 year prison term
I have a theory that I am working on, based on what I have seen so far in my job search for a Java developer position.
I have 10 years of Cobol experience. I have retrained and gotton Java certification. I am now seeking work.
My theory is that even the mention of "mainframe" or "Cobol", puts a person on the wrong side of the barbwire fence. You get labeled as part of the "old" crowd that is too stupid to learn new things.
Originally, I had a resume that showed about 6 years of Cobol experience. I got very few responses.
Then....
I changed my resume and totally stripped it of this experience, removed all references to mainframe work. My resume looks like I am "twenty something", and my 2-3 years of experience is more like business analyst and entry level programmer in stuff that nobody recognizes as mainframe (stuff like DYL 280). But my resume is still truthful, I just look less technical and like I did simple stuff.
I have had recuiters ask me if I used to program in Cobol, and I say "No!".
I am getting a much better response with my "twenty something barely ever programmed resume". I have gotten more phone interviews and more technical interviews. And nobody ever asks what I did before the dates on my resume.
If I do in fact get a Java programming position, with my new resume, I can say that 10 years of Cobol is kind of like 10 years in prison for a felony.
It is something to hide, and if people find out about it - it has to be explained away and minimized.
This is a very sad world we live in.
My relatives have normal professions(like civil engineering and social work) where they don't hide their experience and their education when they look for work, and when I tell them what is going on here in the IT field, they can barely imagine it.
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